Gun Cheats.......

[R Downs]

Originally Posted by Nate_O'Banion

i dont have a problem with cheating at all and I get a lot of crap aboutit lol, if you look at almost every sport, people cheat, thats just the way it is.

So, what your saying is that since some people have no ethics, no one should have ethics? Its a good thing everyone doesnt feel that way or paintball (or any other sport for that matter) would be no fun to play at all.

Originally Posted by Shane

Still there are easy ways of getting around it. Fact is cheating is a part of the game, if you don't like it, find a new hobby.

I would LOVE to see a tourney where all of a sudden they announced, " OK guys, in the Finals we are going to pull the reffs. Cheating will be allowed. May the best cheater win." Who do you think would be crying about that the most? The original cheaters of course. Its fine when YOU get shot and wipe but when you shoot them and they wipe... HEY, no fair.

Its funny to hear people saying stuff like," Who cares if some people cheat? Its not like were PB is a proffesional sport." With attitudes like that flooding the sport, it NEVER will be anything more than it is today. The the reply is,"PB will never be that big anyway". I wonder how many skateboarders said those very same words 10 years ago. I guess maybe its a good thing you cant really cheat in a skateboard competition or they would still be where they were back then.

Originally Posted by jason Pryor

Do you see tiger woods using a cheater wood or iron club? Do you see ernie els droping his ball incorrectly? Did you ever see Jack Nicholas miscount his strokes? No, why because if they were caught cheating they are kicked out of the tournament and the PGA would probaly fine them or give them some other punishment.

Do you think anyone would watch Golf at all if they did cheat. No, it would kill the sport professionally.

Alot of younger people see others cheating and think,*hmm, I guess its ok, everyone else does it* Thats really too bad. You may think its only a game but bad habbits, in the long run, often end up carrying over into more imprtant situations as well. No matter how small you may think it is, how do you think your reputation would be impacted if say, your boss heard you talking about how its OK to cheat? I would imagine he would look at you in a hole different light after that.
Two employees being equal, who would get the promotion. The one the boss hears arguing for, or the one arguing against, cheating?
I really liked the article I read in on of the PB magazines about the company that caters PB games for comapies. The management gets to watch the whole thing and see how its employees perform under preasure and see the sportsmanship and general attitudes of the employees. I doubt the deffence that "its only a game, everyone does it" would help you much when passed over for promotion.

Sorry for the long winded post. I didnt mean to rant. I just couldnt quit typing.
"Cheaters never win. Winners never cheat!" Too bad that isnt true in PB as it is in other sports.

[FrontPlaya04]

Well said! NO CHEATING OR THIS SPORT WILL NEVER BE BIG!

[wileyc143]

Jason, thanks for your inputs on this, they are most refreshing, and reinforce my thoughts.
Oldman, thank you also I can see that we are thinking on the same sheet of music.

I really like the idea of suspensions. Whole team suspensions. I wonder how long you would remain on a team when you get pointed out as the individual that caused a whole team to get suspended from the series. That would weed out a fair amount of cheaters all together.
Has anyone read the new PGI? this is why I was curious to see what the UTAH paintballers thought. Its a very good article, I really suggest that you all pick up a copy, and read what it has to say.
I just hope that WE as the paintball community, are able to remedy this problem with haste. Otherwise, I agree with oldman, that we will never be accepted as a legitimate sport EVER!!

[Simpsons11]

Originally Posted by Jason Pryor

there is an artical in facefull on this exact subject. the author (and I) agree that there is cheating in any sport. Basketball there are fouls, football there penalties, etc. But imagine if we all got 5 wipes like b-ball players get fouls?? The one sport which paintball should follow in regards to penalties is golf. Do you see tiger woods using a cheater wood or iron club? Do you see ernie els droping his ball incorrectly? Did you ever see Jack Nicholas miscount his strokes? No, why because if they were caught cheating they are kicked out of the tournament and the PGA would probaly fine them or give them some other punishment.

I believe that this should be the same in paintball. If a person or persons on a time are found cheating, especially with there guns (as this is a premedatated action) they and their team should be eliminated from the tournament. If at the next tournament they are found to be cheating again kick them out for the year (or next year if it is the end of the current series). As for wiping and playing on, that is a little grayer on what should be done. I like the one for one or two for one. I have said it in other posts, but if you have to cheat you suck. Even the pros, granted they are better than us, but if they have to cheat to win are they really professional or wannabe players? If you can win without cheating you are good. If you cheat to win you look it but will never be good and it will always catch up to you in the end.

I have one problem with that, any electro will bounce with the testing some of these people do to the markers. on my freestyle it will bounce if you hit the back of the tank. Really ramping boards don't bother me much whats the difference between 15 BPS and 20 aren't going to turn the game so much you can't win, anyone should be able to still shoot them out. I do agree with nate on the ramping velocity though that isn't smart.

[Jason Pryor]

Originally Posted by Simpsons11

I have one problem with that, any electro will bounce with the testing some of these people do to the markers. on my freestyle it will bounce if you hit the back of the tank. Really ramping boards don't bother me much whats the difference between 15 BPS and 20 aren't going to turn the game so much you can't win, anyone should be able to still shoot them out. I do agree with nate on the ramping velocity though that isn't smart.

The difference really is when you are going to bunker someone and instead of 15 balls on their body they would then have 20! that could put someone in the hospital. It only takes one maybe 3 to make sure you shot someone. Anything more than that is overkill and becomes dangerous to players and refs.

[Allen Turner]

The Magazine Article that I liked was Paintball Games International

September 2004 pg 36-39 called "the truth about gun cheaters"

It was an excellent article on this subject and Jayson covered some of the main points eariler. The basic point that I liked was that the cheating is being done on the manufacturing side and until the manufacturers take responsibility the problem cannot be corrected.

It cannot be up the event promoters (like me) to regulate the manufacturers, it just wont work. The players will not stop trying to gain a competative edge. The entire industry needs some sort of self regulation / standardization.

Wiley is right also that the extreme speed of these guns is well outside the safety standards for the sport. Both ATSM and Insurance regulations.

On a personal note while I dont like gun cheats or cheating in general. IMO there is a difference in Recreational play vs Tournament play, Cheating in Rec play is dishonorable but in a tournament its expected and part of the game. Most of you who drive cheat every day by speeding, yet its publicly accpetable. In football there is "holding" on every play, in Basketball there is "cheating" on both teams on every play, Blocking, 2 steps, double dribble. The funny thing is its not a foul unless its called and yet we hold our nose and accept the "cheating" as part of the sport. I do not agree that gun cheats and wipers will prevent paintball from becoming publicly acceptable as a sport.
The fact that Spike, OLN and now ESPN are running paintball will propell it into the mainsteam cheaters or not.

Since Paintball is so technology driven the difference between winning and loosing is cheating technology, just ask Dynasty, the best cheaters in the business but also the most winning team in the sport. In fact Dynasty is so good at cheating they are selling their boards to others who want to cheat like them.

If the cheater boards are not caught then we say "Hey look how great Dynasty is" and if they are caught we dont even know about it. I am not picking on Dynasty because other teams do it, they are just the best at it.

I think that NASCAR is a good model or example. For every class of car they regulate the engine type and "Boost pressure" etc. In different classes different things are allowed. If you boost your turbocharger its not cheating but it does put you in a different class. Maybe thats abstract but I hope you take my point.

I suppose if you want to avoid gun cheats then try stock class, if it still exists...

[OB1]

Here is my thoughts on the matter...like allen said its up the manufactures to make the first step!

Paintball has become such a huge arms race that anybody who's anybody is willing to sacrifice the integrity of the game to get their marker out there and gain the competitive edge. This is the biggest problem with paintball (especially in the big leagues).

Now here is where I may get a little contaversial to you all. Everyone that has posted has had good points, including Nate and those that have said that cheating is acceptable....I somewhat agree, but dont totally condone or support it. Cheating with your gun makes you a pussy and weak. It involves no extra ordinary skill, and does not improve ones game in the least! In other sports especially golf players do not cheat with equipment. That is the biggest cheat that urkes me...cheating with your gear. Its cheap and lame.

There are other kinds of cheating...wiping for example. This is an aquired skill. This is where when people say there is cheating in other sports, its ok for paintball. Like your fouls in basketball, or holding in football, yes its cheating, but its monitored and you get small penalties, sometimes you can use those penalties (or getting away without getting called) to your advantage.

On the other hand, if you running on the break, take a hit to the chest and then superman into your snake, then look down and see nothing did you cheat? You cant just stop in the middle of your break and look down at yourself...can you? I wouldnt, thats a guarenteed lighting up. This kind of cheating I dont have a problem with, you gotta do what you gotta do. Sliding on a knee when you take a leg shot, or grabbing a pod when you take a hand hit, I can somewhat tolerate these cheats. They are like fouls in b-ball to me. Most you get away with, and it gives you that little bit of advantage. Trying to wipe a gog, or a super super obvious hit, that is ridiculous, that is like the flagrant foul to me. Just uncalled for, that is when you should know your time is up, and you need to just walk to the dead box.

This is my .02 on cheating. I dont support technology cheating one bit, and if it continues to grow worse I say just make the players go back to mechanicals. As far as skill cheats, that is a gray area to me, like fouling in the NBA. Only time will tell what this sport will bring us???

[krispy]

Originally Posted by OB1

On the other hand, if you running on the break, take a hit to the chest and then superman into your snake, then look down and see nothing did you cheat? You cant just stop in the middle of your break and look down at yourself...can you? I wouldnt, thats a guarenteed lighting up. This kind of cheating I dont have a problem with, you gotta do what you gotta do. Sliding on a knee when you take a leg shot, or grabbing a pod when you take a hand hit, I can somewhat tolerate these cheats. They are like fouls in b-ball to me. Most you get away with, and it gives you that little bit of advantage. Trying to wipe a gog, or a super super obvious hit, that is ridiculous, that is like the flagrant foul to me. Just uncalled for, that is when you should know your time is up, and you need to just walk to the dead box.

Enjoyed the thoughts. Cheating no matter how small is still cheating..

The only thought there i somewhat agree with is if you got a hit on the chest and run to dive into the snake on the break, although you should still make effort to see if its a hit......the getting shot in the hand and grabbing a pod, or shot in the knee and sliding thats just as bad as wiping a gog shot....

The best paintball to be played is with players that go out on foot hits, or hits in between the visor and top of lens, thats honest playing.........

my .02

[wileyc143]

Thats funny Allen, I thought that the article from PGI was excellent also. Thats what interested me in this topic and Utah players. Thanks for your input, as it really is very enlightning to me.

[Darkalliance1]

Originally Posted by FrontPlaya04

Well said! NO CHEATING OR THIS SPORT WILL NEVER BE BIG!

I haven't read any post cause i am too lazy but cheaing is gonna happen, no ones gunna stop it so just live w/ it.

Quote from Kyle--
Wiping a hit is like wiping your ass, no one wants to see it, no one wants to hear about it but it has definately got to be done.