Gay marriage.....?

Z · 03-24-2006, 09:44 PM

The only moral degeneration that is going on is people teaching other people that hating people for their beliefs and choices is right. I mean come on. You honestly think that homosexuality is going to be the downfall of society. Wake up. The only downfall I see from this is the unability to accept people for who they are. Gay or strait. They are still good people. But you want to condemn them because of their choice to love someone that is of the same sex instead of the opposite sex?

Ignorance, Pure ignorance. I mean Im not gay. I have friends that are gay. Does that bother me. No. They are still people. They think, they love, they bleed, they are the same as you and me. And your telling me they those people are going to be the downfall of society because of a preference of who to love or who to be with?

Im completely blown away by this. You wanna see the same situation. Go back a couple of decades and look at the black movements of Martin Luther King jr. Black or white they are still people.

onecalorieevil · 03-25-2006, 07:19 AM

my 2 cents. lets go back in time real quick. we need only travel a few decades when blacks were looked on as inferior people. when society thought that giving them rights would be the downfall of our great country. that if you had a black working for you your busness would suffer. that if we let them vote we would all pay. of course people brought the bible up saying the bible stated they were evil creatures that they were the spawn of satan. well for your information the bible can argue any point you want depending on how you take what it says. another thing the bible was written by man therfore it is flawed. it was also edited by the roman chatholic church to fit there needs hence the reason we have the kings james version. so dont use the bible in your argument. also all they want is the same right as other married people well if you have a problem with someone haveing the same rights as you go put your little white sheet on and go to your clan meeting and tell the good ol boys how you feel. im sure thell give you a membership consedering they are hurting for members becuse educated people should relize this issue is no different than all the other issues you biggots fight for. why dont you guys start fight for some real issues. like the fact that are goverment is ran by mostly money hungry asses that dont give a crap that more than half our country lives in poverty, or thaat drugs are going to destroy our way of life, or how about the fact that the crime rate is so high, actually nevermind we should worry about 2 men /2women that want the same right as you (sarcasm just in case you couldnt tell)

Jeremy · 03-25-2006, 11:56 AM

^^^^ Nicely put kev. Dont think i could have said it any better.

roberto · 03-25-2006, 10:52 PM

I think all im going to worry about is the popularity of paintball in utah. Next time im in milleium ill try to remeber to thank wada for bringing up this thread. Really wada you dont need a car you can just buy paintball gear and walk everywhere, or you could buy a gear bag with wheels that you can ride on. 😛

AF Guy · 03-27-2006, 07:25 PM

Wow, comparing homosexuality today to the civil rights movement. Hmmm, one is born without a choice of their skin color, the other chooses their sexual preferences. That is an inadequate comparison, the old apples to oranges argument.

Let's again look at this intellectually and biblically honestly. For starters, I am not the church going type. I am not LDS either, kind of a unique situation for Utah. However, in the biblical sense, there is no more clearer definition of an immoral act than homosexuality. God says in Leviticus and Romans how to deal with the actions. It cannot be taken any other way.

I don't desire a Biblical fight, it's not my style. I do believe however that the God of the Universe who is all knowing and all powerful could make sure that his words were put down correctly at some point in time. I know scientifically that every ancient manuscript ever found has never revealed any changes over 4,000 years, so the argument dealing with the Bible changing over time is intellectually dishonest. Yes, the church at one time made the King James Version, but all that did was remove a few books that were in question. Those books are still out there in a volume called the apocrypha and many people read them today.

On the other side, there are many like myself who view history and sociology as a guide to our future. Every mistake that can be made has been made somewhere in time. Homosexuality has been tried by the Greeks, Romans and others throughout history. Each occasion of where the action has become in vogue has seen a negative affect on society.

20 years ago, 1% of the population identified themselves as gay. Today, that number is much higher because television, media and politicians have made the action stylish. If you're 16 and you can't get laid by a girl, your buddy will work just as well according to the media. I've worked with many young people the past few years who tried a "gay experience" just to see what it was like. For most, it's an action they are ashamed of and won't admit too.

Being gay doesn't make anyone a bad person. We all make choices that are accepted by some and rejected by others. Being a xenophobe or someone who hates others for their religion is no excuse. Hate is coming from both sides of the argument with few valid points. There are many lawsuits pending right now from ex-gays and Christians who want their viewpoints heard but are being threatened with death and other horrible actions. Same goes for gays, in some communities they aren't welcome.

Accept me as a person even though I dislike homosexual actions and I'll in turn accept gays for what I consider a moral flaw. It is not my job to judge, I'll leave that to God upon our deaths.

franky · 03-27-2006, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krispy

That wouldn't be Closed minded that would be Protecting our future Generations from further Moral degeneration.

I have Read into or LDS. orgs it Says to love thy Neighbor and I Do... (you may want to read "The Proclamation of the Family") That Doesn't Require me to like ,accept, or take Lightly the negative consequences pushed upon Society by their actions. Gay Marriage may be better Compared to a form of (Abortion) Self inflicted Genocide, or Leading towards the death of Society as we know it.

I thought a bit More about the bigot Stance... and I would call it a Point of View from a firm Ground.

are you suggesting that you believe EVERYTHING your religion tells you

Quote:

Originally Posted by AF Guy

Wow, comparing homosexuality today to the civil rights movement. Hmmm, one is born without a choice of their skin color, the other chooses their sexual preferences. That is an inadequate comparison, the old apples to oranges argument.

Let's again look at this intellectually and biblically honestly. For starters, I am not the church going type. I am not LDS either, kind of a unique situation for Utah. However, in the biblical sense, there is no more clearer definition of an immoral act than homosexuality. God says in Leviticus and Romans how to deal with the actions. It cannot be taken any other way.

I don't desire a Biblical fight, it's not my style. I do believe however that the God of the Universe who is all knowing and all powerful could make sure that his words were put down correctly at some point in time. I know scientifically that every ancient manuscript ever found has never revealed any changes over 4,000 years, so the argument dealing with the Bible changing over time is intellectually dishonest. Yes, the church at one time made the King James Version, but all that did was remove a few books that were in question. Those books are still out there in a volume called the apocrypha and many people read them today.

On the other side, there are many like myself who view history and sociology as a guide to our future. Every mistake that can be made has been made somewhere in time. Homosexuality has been tried by the Greeks, Romans and others throughout history. Each occasion of where the action has become in vogue has seen a negative affect on society.

20 years ago, 1% of the population identified themselves as gay. Today, that number is much higher because television, media and politicians have made the action stylish. If you're 16 and you can't get laid by a girl, your buddy will work just as well according to the media. I've worked with many young people the past few years who tried a "gay experience" just to see what it was like. For most, it's an action they are ashamed of and won't admit too.

Being gay doesn't make anyone a bad person. We all make choices that are accepted by some and rejected by others. Being a xenophobe or someone who hates others for their religion is no excuse. Hate is coming from both sides of the argument with few valid points. There are many lawsuits pending right now from ex-gays and Christians who want their viewpoints heard but are being threatened with death and other horrible actions. Same goes for gays, in some communities they aren't welcome.

Accept me as a person even though I dislike homosexual actions and I'll in turn accept gays for what I consider a moral flaw. It is not my job to judge, I'll leave that to God upon our deaths.

when you say that homosexuality is a choice i agree with you but then religion is a choice too so are you saying that anti-semitism should be more accepted in our society

most religious scholars agree that the bible is not in its original form, this is due to the fact that before the printing press was invented it was copied down by hand and scribes would add in what they believed. it is now thought that the story involving something with the phrase "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" was not originally in the bible(i dont know the bible so i cant site exact stories so that is the best i can do to pinpoint a story)

also i think that anyone using a christian(or any religion for that matter) argument for or against gay marriage or any other law or civil right needs to stop talking. the majority of this countries population is christian but it is not a christian nation, america does not have an official religion because somebody realized that as soon as something is official other things begin to take a backseat and become less important

franky · 03-27-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krispy

Franky.

Your post replying to my post is pointless. My religion teaches many great values, none of which will harm me or anyone. Am I to chose the things that I want to believe, when they are taught from God. His values, His ways, His teachings. In saying that though, I do not infer that I am perfect, I am far from, I have my struggles and understand that those that become gay through choices are struggling as well. With that they should not be given a bunch of hand me this and hand me thats. In doing so those that commit adultry, spouse abusal, among other forms of ""pursuit of happiness" as it has been termed here, may as well be granted freedom and may as well be looked upon as being ok.

Anywho, AFGUY, I think hit it upon the spot. Learn from histories mistakes and don't make them in our day. And that the oppression of the blacks and slavery and the black movement cannot be compared to the gay movement in any way, other then its a movement. Yet, moral issues and choices of preference have no relationship with the skin color that one is born with.

i did not mean to offend you nor am i in anyway attacking your religion but no one i have ever talked to has said that they belive everything 100% that their religion says, your use of the word "require" made me curious as to the fact of whether or not you believe all of what you are told by your religion

Derek · 03-28-2006, 09:42 PM

I have to question the choice thing. Just as i was born attracted to women some people are born attrated to the same sex. It has been proven that some gay people have chemical differences that may have forced the "choice" onto them.

Some have been gay since birth, some have become gay as a product of their enviroment, but its not really a choice. Tell me this can you choose not to be attracted to the oppisite sex? Neither can they.

Its not like they wake up and say "hey i think ill like other men today"

Its not wrong in their eyes, and its not your place to tell them that their lifestyle is wrong. Its not gonna degrade our society any faster than the Politicians are doing right now.

As for the bible, it was written and copied by men, most scholars agree that the bible is most likely highly inaccurate, so i don't put much stock in that.

Do you thing a supreme being (assuming there is one) really has nothing better to do then be upset by people he created apparently incorrectly loving the wrong sex?

I also have to give credit for those who say they don't like it but can accept it....I think thats a good character trait.

Derek · 03-31-2006, 07:09 AM

Af guy,

While i find your arguement well thought out and written.
I have to disagree with you on a few points.

First the west has been trying to stabilize the middle east for a thousand years. Its not gonna happen short of mass genocide and thats not something americans are willing to do.

AS far as your arguement on healthcare, while several countries have shortages several do not. Considering that americans pay almost 40 percent in taxes already its not a strech to say you are already spending what swiss citzen are currently paying.

Almost 50 million americans are without health care and its projected to grow to 80 million before 2010. This is absolutely redicoulous. Americans that fall for this free economy B.S. need to take some economic courses and realise we are being sold excuses. Expect prises to continue to rise until american people stand up say enough is enough.

While we are based on a democracy we are far from a true one. Notice what happened when The feds deregulated Power and water? The price tripled, and has no end in sight. This is exacltly what has happened to healthcare. Until we rope in the feds and what they spend expect your living expense to coontinue to raise and watch your wages stay the same.

How many americans are homeless? Or without the basics? New orleans should be a good indication of how horribly strained from Iraq and afganistan. A billion Dollars a day should be going into the american people or the suffereing american economy. Why are we building homes and school in other countries when we are at a shortage here right now.

I agree that Iraqi and afganistan needed to be dealt with however economic sanctions was the better choice. I can't shake your hand and punch you in the nose at the same time. The only way to win that war is to hit those bastards so hard they don't want to get up.

I also worked with many iraqi's and middle easterns, and while im sure many are good people, the ones i worked with were not. I work in oil, they hated americans, were lazy and generally unclean and unpleasant so ill call them any name i want.

I suggest you all read the book called "lifeboat economics"

Derek

Michael · 04-22-2006, 01:02 AM

Hang on I would like to dispute the fact that ur sexual orientation involves choice. Its purely ur brain and stuff. The fact is that these are people too and are born with equal rights and then suddenly those rights dissappear based on who they love. There is something wrong with that. I think that gay rights is a huge issue that is very hotly debated but it disgusts me that people will deny the rights of a person who was born different. JUst because someone is different do u hate them??? its like if I told u that u were ugly and so u cant get married and u r denied of any benefits that go along with that (married couples insurance plans etc.). I know however that this is an issue that will swing back and forth and lean in many directions so I think that compromise will help to solve it. For instance, maybe gays dont get marital status but are eligible for married couple insurance and other benefits. Anyway, I side with Gay rights because no one is better than anyone else based on our country's constitution and that document has brought america from the tyranny of king george of england all the way to being one of if not the most powerful country in the world.